Response to Chapter 11 Entitled “Fifth Shi’a tradition”
Answering-Ansar says
One narrator is Saeed Ibn Salma who according to Rijjal al Makoofi was an unknown narrator (Volume 1 page 68 and Volume 2 page 27). Neither is the Tadheeb tradition acceptable in logic nor does it have a reliable chain of narrators.
Answering-Ansar bases its argument on the fact that Saeed ibn Salma was an unknown narrator. Unfortunately for Answering-Ansar, we find the embarassing fact that Saeed ibn Salma was not in the chain of narrators! Let us see who the narrators are of the Tadheeb narration, according to the authoratative Shia website, Rafed.net:
Rafed.net says
Translation: Muhammad ibn al-Hasan (i.e. al-Tusi) with his chain, from Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Yahya, from Jafar ibn Muhammad al-Qummi, from ibn al-Qiddah, from (Imam) Jafar (al-Sadiq), from his father (Imam al-Baqir)…
As we can see, there is no Saeed ibn Salma in the Isnad here, which al-Hurr al-’Amili has recorded in al-Wasa’il. Indeed, this is how desperate Answering-Ansar has become in declaring their own Hadith to be fabricated. They have here declared an imaginary narrator to be unreliable. Another blow to the credibility of the Answering-Ansar website. If they cannot even accurately quote from their own Shia books, then how reliable do we think Answering-Ansar’s quotations are from Sunni ones?
Answering-Ansar says
In which year did these deaths take place? (45 / 50 Hijri)
In which month did mother and son die? (e.g. Safar / Rajab)
What day did they die on (e.g. Thursday / Friday)
What time of day was it? (Day or night)
Where did they die? (e.g. Madina, Makka)
How old was UMME KALTHUM at the time of her death?
The answer to all of these questions is simple and has been stated both in the books of Ahlus Sunnah as well as those of secular historians: the exact date of Umm Kulthoom’s death is unknown, and there are various reports as to when she died. The more reliable reports indicate that she died before the incident of Karbala, although there are some weaker reports that place her at the scene of Karbala. (Answering-Ansar itself quotes “Zakhair al Akba” which states “There exist two viewpoints amongst the Ulema in relation to the death of Umme Kalthum, wife of Umar.”)
There is nothing strange in the fact that the exact date of Umm Kulthoom’s death is unknown. In fact, there are many such people during that time of whom we do not know exactly when they died, or even where they died. Let us take Umm Kulthoom’s elder sister, for example; there are conflicting reports as to the year Zaynab bint Ali died as well as the place she died, and even where she spent out the last few years of her life. We see that there are conflicting reports, some saying that Zaynab spent her last days in Medinah, others saying that she spent them in Egypt, and yet others placing her in Syria.
In fact, not only are the Shia not sure of the exact year Zaynab died but they are not sure even what date of the year it was. Because they do not know the exact date of her death, the Shia have chosen the five most likely days Zaynab died: 16th Rajabul Asab, the 11th or 21st of Jamadi uth-thani, the 24th of Safar, or the 16th of Dhu’l-Hijjah. Notice that these dates are in separate months altogether, and so Answering-Ansar asking us exactly when Umm Kulthoom died is unfair. Not only this, but there are even conflicting reports amongst the Shia as to how Zaynab bint Ali died, some claiming she died of natural causes and others (in the typical Shia fashion) claiming that the Nasibis murdered her. And there are even disputes amongst the Shia as to where she is buried, and there are many cities which supposedly boast her grave.
Wikipedia Encyclopedia says
After the Battle of Kerbala, Zaynab and her family were eventually released and escorted back to Medina. After her return to Medina, little is known of her in the year and a half before her death, except through much later, conflicting reports. According to one report, she stayed and died there. Another report states that due to persecution from the governor of Medina, she traveled to Fustat (later Cairo) in Egypt with several other women from the family of the Prophet; she lived in Fustat for over a year, narrating the Karbala tragedy and preaching the love of the family of the Prophet, and died there. A third report states that she went with her husband to his Syrian estates in a year of drought and died there.
Sources also differ as to the year of her death. According to most of them, she died on 15 Rajab AH 62 (682 CE), when she was fifty-six years old. Although it is not known exactly what year she died with so many differing reports, what is known for certain is that Zaynab did not long survive her return from Kerbala, and died circa 682 CE. Some traditions say that Zaynab was murdered by a Yazid-loyalist with a spade in a garden at Damascus. The anniversary of her death is said to be either 16th Rajabul Asab, the 11th or 21st of Jamadi uth-thani, the 24th of Safar, or the 16th of Dhu’l-Hijjah.
Several cities boast shrines said to be built over Zaynab’s grave. One shrine is located in Damascus, Syria [1]. There is also a shrine to Zaynab in Cairo, Egypt.
Answering-Ansar attempts to make a huge fuss out of the idea that there are various reports about Umm Kulthoom’s son and when he died. Again, there is nothing strange in this: there are various reports about Zaynab’s son whose name was Muhammad. Some reports claim that he died in the tragedy of Karbala whereas others say he didn’t. And there is even less information about Zaynab’s son Abbas, with no reliable reports telling us where and when he died.
Wikipedia Encyclopedia says
Together this young couple had five children, of whom four were sons, Ali, Aun, Muhammad, and Abbas, and one daughter, Umm Khultum. Ali, also known as Ali al-Zaynabi, would have numerous descendants who would take pride in their lineage to Zaynab. Aun al-Akbar was killed at Kerbala. Some reports indicate that Muhammad was also killed at Kerbala, although others say that he lived on after that. There is no information about Abbas in regards to how or when he died.
Thus, there is nothing strange in the fact that there is a difference of opinion as to when Umm Kulthoom died or when her son died. Similarly, there is a difference of opinion as to when her sister, Zaynab, died (and Zaynab’s son as well). What I don’t get is how any of this has anything to do with the matter at hand, namely the marriage of Umar and Umm Kulthoom? The fact that there are different reports as to when Zaynab died has no bearing on her marriage to Abdullah ibn Jafar. Could a Sunni really claim that the marriage of Zaynab to Abdullah ibn Jafar never took place based on the simple fact that there are differing reports as to when Zaynab died? I don’t see the link between the two assumptions. Likewise, the fact that there are differing reports as to when Umm Kulthoom died has no bearing on her marriage to Umar bin Khattab. Whereas there may be some confusion as to the date of Umm Kulthoom’s and Zaynab’s respective deaths, there is no confusion on the matter that Umm Kulthoom and Zaynab married Umar and Abdullah respectively.
Written By: Ibn al-Hashimi, www.ahlelbayt.com
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